Tuesday, June 07, 2005

DELIGHTFUL Daughters of SIS (whatever that is...)

And I quote:

Although we believe God is all-powerful and does indeed perform miracles, we do not believe the current charismatic trends in the Church are Biblical. He is Lord of all, sovereign and holy, and He does not violate His Word. In addition, we also lift up traditional Christian standards such as...

  1. A belief that God is sovereign. This trust in God's work in our lives impacts the way we live and what we believe. For instance, many on this list believe God is the one who determines family size.

  2. A belief that women are to be modest in dress and behavior. Although there is a general level of modesty that should be maintained (and can be discussed), we believe the father of each household must set the exact standard of dress for his own wife and daughters. Therefore, we ask that detailed discussions on this subject be directed to him.

  3. A belief that women should be trained to primarily be keepers at home. For the most part, this would include staying home under her father's authority until she is married and then serving her husband and children in the home.

  4. A belief that it is God's best for children to be schooled at home.

  5. A belief that it is God's will for wives to be in submission to their husband's authority and for unmarried daughters to be obedient to her parents and under her father's authority until the time that God provides a husband.

  6. A belief that women should not hold positions of leadership in the local Church body.

Sniff sniff...I smell a cult.


Iain said...

I'd have to say, like it or not, that these people aren't a cult.

They resemble a fairly undiluted form of what some Conservative Christians believe with respect to the ontological nature of men, women and, importantly, God.

This perspective is nothing new, in fact it has been around for a long time in various shapes and sizes.

One may choose to disgree with them on certain matters, as I myself certainly seem to, but I don't think they could be called a Cult any more than Radical Orthodox* egalitarians could be called a Cult.

But hey, none of us can be right 100% of the time, yeah? And, naturally, all of us believe that what we believe is true, otherwise we wouldn't believe it... follow?
Well, that makes all of us heretics >:)

*allow me to add the priviso that I'm not well versed on Radical Orthodoxy (more importantly whether the term best describes me or not!) but it was merely an example

Sharyn said...

Hmmmm well I was bought up in a cult, until I was 13, and I know one when I smell one. Any 'Christian' (and I use the term loosely) organisation that tries to oppress a group of people using the Bible, is a cult, whatever name you like to give them!

Those beliefs are, by and large, a clear misinterpretation and manipulation of the Bible, for the obvious purpose of subjugating women. It makes me angry, and induces flash backs of my not so distant past.

Furthermore, I think treating women in that way is a disgusting violation, and God would HATE it. I can't stand it when people USE the Bible in that way. GRRRRRRRR.

Iain said...

I would say I pretty much agree, my intention was to be a lovingly generous hippy :P

But, yes, you've hit the nail on the head with regards to the motivation that people have in doing much of modern theology. Theologies of the 2/3's World, Liberation Theology, Feminist Theology and postmodern theology involve fighting against ways-of-thinking ('metanarratives') that oppress and dominate.

I like to envision that in getting to know God more and more that would lend me to insights that liberate and set people free, that bring hope and joy, not ideas that can be used to dominate, control and suppress. (sidenote: as an Evangelical I try to do this in a way honouring to the Scriptures, despite what others might think)

Have you read my Pacifism essay? You might enjoy it, I bring up some issues and I even give geeky references to useful related books ;)

Nobody has commented there, so I presumed nobody had read it. On a personal plug, I've also added an email link on my blog so anybody who wants to flame the heretical poMo activist can do so freely. (All emails freely recieved, especially ones written instead of studying)

A. J. Chesswas said...

I haven't come to these conclusions as a result of seeking to justify the oppression of women. Can we define oppression, anyway? Am I oppressed by God, considering that if I don't obey him and accept Christ I will suffer in Hell? No, I am in fact set free, and I am able to fulfill the purpose for which I was created. Ditto for women in submission.

My mother believes in submission, but barely practices it (must forgive her, she's schizophrenic!). I have grown up with the idea, but found it challenged when a church I was part of discussed the matter of women in leadership. I was wishy-washy about it for a year or so, as I was about most things, but, as with most things, I decided to pitch a tent on the extreme conservative side of the fence.

Why? My people had been parked there for centuries, trusting the validity of the word of God. Last century we packed up and crossed to the other side of the fence, now children are growing up without Dads, sexual promiscuity is epidemic, pornography is epidemic, child abuse is epidemic, and the nation moves closer and closer to a statist society. Many indigenous cultures have resisted the ideas that have latched onto the West over the last 100 years, but it saddens me my own people will not learn, and are happy to commit an ethnic and cultural suicide.

This is not about whether women are good or evil, equal or inferior. It is about what each of us were created for. Do you care about power that much that you are willing to pin your self-worth to it? Do you really believe that the measure of power you have determines the value of your life? May I remind you of how the creator himself came into his greatest glory? Philippians 2:5-11.

I am indeed in a difficult position, in that I, an agrarian British NZ Christian male, stand to benefit as much as anyone from the political views I hold!

SubversNZ said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Elizabeth said...

I smell a cult too. If you ever wonder if you are in one TRY LEAVING! Freedom is surely still a right whether we are Christians or not.

It must always be my choice whom I submit to and, dare I add, to what extent I submit.
The Scriptures say to submit to those in authority, those who have the rule over you, to your husband, children to you parents etc I now chose the extent of my submission. Too much doesn't do me, nor the ones I am submitting to, any lasting good.

Interesting that this comes up in conjunction with Lynne's blog.

Andrew said...

My question to Sharyn is

Just kidding!

SubversNZ said...

When I re-read my deleted comment above it seemed ill-considered, hence the deletion.

Sorry everyone.

Iain said...

>Interesting that this comes up in conjunction with Lynne's blog.

Elizabeth, care to explain? I've had a brief skim of Lynne's blog, but I can't see what you might mean.

Maybe it's so obvious I missed it ;) Murphy's Law strikes again.

Shawn said...

Interesting stuff Sharyn. The idea of a cult facinates me because the word is thrown around so much by so many different people, with all sorts of different meanings. I'm interested in why you checked out their site in the first place.

Do you believe the Amish to be a cult? The reason I ask is that they believe pretty much the same as these Patriarch's Daughters believe.

I personally don't believe these people to be a cult. I don't think it's a lifestyle I would choose for my daughters of wife (if I had either...haha) but if it works for these people then why not?

Sharyn said...

Hi Iain,

Elizabeth is my mother, and the latest post on Lynne's blog is a story about my sisters and my mother and I. It is about the transformation that occurred in us when we left the confines and control of the cult. In that church we were made to feel like second class citizens, sub human and un-valuable by men who held beliefs exactly the same as those I quote on my post.

These words, this conversation is not some theological exercise for us - it is reality! It is my lived experiance.

Sharyn said...

Allan, I don't know WHAT to say to you. I do not think any further conversation or debate will help either of us, as we clearly come from such different positions.

I feel sad that you hold the beliefs about women that you do, and more that you do not see how these beliefs are oppressive.

I guess you feel the same about me and mine!

Sharyn said...

Shawn: I don't know anything about the Amish, except that they have one belief that I value highly. At a certian age, young people are sent out into the 'world' to experiance what else is out there, and they then make a choice about staying out, or coming back. For this reason, I would not class them as a cult.

Like my venerable mother said - if you want to know if it is a cult - try to leave!

I was brought up in a cult until I was 13. I am not talking though a hole in my head. I didn't say that the SIS (whatever that is) is a cult, just that it smelt like one. And it does.

Shawn said...

I've been thinking about this topic since I posted a couple of hours ago and I wanted to clarify a few points.

I was also brought up in what some people might refer to as a cult, which my parents got us out of when I was about 10. I count myself lucky that my parents were smart enough in the things of God to realise that the whole situation had gone off the rails, and got us out.

I don't believe that what we were in started out as a cult, but as peoples ego's grew, and the safety-net of a denomination to keep the leadership in check slowly disappeared, things certainly turned to the worse. Whether they were truely a cult is a matter of opinion.

I don't like putting a tag of "cult" onto things. I've read in a magazine where Hillsong Church in Sydney is described as a cult. I don't believe that, though I probably wouldn't attend there.

As I said, I don't believe this SIS thing is a cult (although my information on the matter is a single website and no first-hand experience) but it is also something I would not want to be involved with in any way.

Elizabeth said...

Last night I avoid blogs and cults and decide to watch the box, Coro Street, now that has to be mindless entertainment doesn't it?? But no, Karen is drinking too much avoiding confronting her own pain at being brought up in a cult! STOP THE WORLD I WANNA GET OFF!

Karen said...

I feel the need to comment on this subject but as it is too long for this place I will comment over on my blog. Elizabeth I got a bit worried that the last comment was referring to me but then realised that there is a Karen on Coro St and yes it is mindless garbage! Thank you for being brave and honest enough Sharyn to bring this topic up and remember that sometimes different view points are not wrong just different. While I will never agree with you on everything that does not make me appreciate your ideas and viewpoint any the less.